Stocks Soar After Half-Point Rate Cut

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Oh boy!
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This is my third installment of news regarding rate cuts. The first 2 are here:

http://www.therxforum.com/showthread.php?t=487943

http://www.therxforum.com/showthread.php?t=494050

:dancefool


http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070918/wall_street.html?.v=53

Federal Reserve Slashes Interest Rate by a Half-Point; Market Soars


WASHINGTON (AP) -- In a bold strike, the Federal Reserve slashed a key interest rate by a half point on Tuesday -- the first cut in over four years -- and left the door open to further relief to prevent a painful housing slump and jarring credit crunch from driving the country into recession.
 

Their undisputed masterpiece is "Hip to be Square.
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I called a 400 pt up early this morning. Close

I think its ridiculous, but I'll be in the housing market in the next 6-12 mths..and don't want inflation jitters to hose me on a rate.
 

Lieutenant Commander
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This is just inflation, stocks gained nothing.
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
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This is just inflation, stocks gained nothing.


Just inflation? So are you saying that the price of everything went up 2.9% today along with the market? I went to wendy's today and my salad was the same price it was yesterday. I bought some milk and it was the same price as last week. I went to the movie and the ticket price was the same as last year. If your thesis is correct, then being in stocks is the only place to be because they are the only thing that can move with inflation. You are saying that everybody who owns 5% yielding treasuries lost almost 3% today because of inflation.



Inflation moves up around 2% a year and are you saying it moved up 3% just today? That's absurd.
 

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The price of stocks in gold remained basically the same but the dollar became cheaper and the stock market as a market that is nearly efficient responded promptly. The grocery store and such are examples of inefficient markets, they are slow and they are losing money without even realizing this.
 

Rx .Junior
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intraday.gif


See the cliff so perfectly timed with the announced cuts; that’s the beginning of your inflation. Data's point is a valid one. Obviously things aren't going to be re-priced instantaneously but they will, and sooner than you think. The continued debasement of the $ from this cut can (and will IMO) lead to 70’s style stagflation.

Ready for all the prices in Wal-Mart to go up, all the electronics made overseas to rise everywhere, $5/gallon for gas & milk? Are you ready for how catastrophic it will be if we continue to push for the Yuan Peg to be pulled?

Maybe your salad was the same price today but let the market catch up and it won’t be in 3,6, or 12 months out.
 

Oh boy!
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intraday.gif


See the cliff so perfectly timed with the announced cuts; that’s the beginning of your inflation. Data's point is a valid one. Obviously things aren't going to be re-priced instantaneously but they will, and sooner than you think. The continued debasement of the $ from this cut can (and will IMO) lead to 70’s style stagflation.

Ready for all the prices in Wal-Mart to go up, all the electronics made overseas to rise everywhere, $5/gallon for gas & milk? Are you ready for how catastrophic it will be if we continue to push for the Yuan Peg to be pulled?

Maybe your salad was the same price today but let the market catch up and it won’t be in 3,6, or 12 months out.

desrat, pardon my ignorance. What do the 2 lines in the graph represent?
 

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If you do not mind me answering, the blue line is the price of USD index traded on NYBOT, while the red line is, as you can see on the top of the chart, is its 2 hours MA (moving average).
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
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The stock market is up 4x since 1993 (not including dividends). So the logic you guys are using should mean that the average price of everything should also be up 4x since 1993. It also means that the average salary in the United States should be up 4x from that point, or that minimum wage should be up 4x from then. I can promise you that this isn't the case. As I stated earlier, CPI only rises an average of 2% a year at the most.




The stockmarket is up around 8% this year, are you guys really telling me that within 12 months from now the cpi will be up 8% from now too? That is one of the main jobs of the FED is to control inflation and not to let it get out of hand. With the logic you two are saying, the only place to be invested is in stocks because they will mirror inflation (when they rise 2.5% like today, they really gained nothing).
 

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Hitman26, it seems you are missing the subject of this thread that reads: "Stocks Soar After Half-Point Rate Cut". I am unable to see a relevance of your "since 1993" argument. Nonetheless, measuring inflation with CPI is extremely misleading. USD is an international commodity and USD inflation is not measured by grocery prices but much more by NYBOT's USD index which represents its value in terms of a basket of six major foreign currencies.

Yes, there are still sandwiches on a dollar menu but try thinking how much more expensive the trips to Europe became over the years.
 

Oh boy!
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Hitman26, it seems you are missing the subject of this thread that reads: "Stocks Soar After Half-Point Rate Cut". I am unable to see a relevance of your "since 1993" argument. Nonetheless, measuring inflation with CPI is extremely misleading. USD is an international commodity and USD inflation is not measured by grocery prices but much more by NYBOT's USD index which represents its value in terms of a basket of six major foreign currencies.

Yes, there are still sandwiches on a dollar menu but try thinking how much more expensive the trips to Europe became over the years.

Data, I think the confusion may lie in the term "inflation". When most people see that they think of the current value of the US dollar compared to its historic levels. I believe the reference you are using is not compared to its historic level rather than the dollar's value against international currencies.
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
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Ok Data: You win. The market was flat yesterday and we should all go out and trade our dollars for gold, barrels of oil, and euros.



United States stocks are the worst possible place to be because when the DOW goes up over 340 points in one day, it really just broke even. However when stocks go down 300 points in one day then US stock investors are the biggest losers/suckers in the world. Waren Buffett is a chump and he really didn't make any money on Tuesday September 18th because his stocks were merely matching inflation.



This spin is kind of fun. I hope the market goes down 80% this year so we can gloat to everyone how smart we were and how we foresaw this Great Depression while we would be uber rich because we own gold, copper, and Yen.
 

Triple digit silver kook
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Hitman, if you are using the cpi as an inflation gauge, I suggest you find another source to find true price increases.

Look around you. Do you actually believe the price data being published by wall street and washington dc? 2-4% a year or whatever bullshit they have reported.

Around the globe, during high inflationary periods, the nominal value of stocks usually rises, however when weighed with real returns, are negative.

Inflation is actually the change in money supply and any aggregate price increases are the result of the inflation.

For example, if the money supply increases by 50% in a year, and your stock portfolio rises anything less than 50% you technically have a negative return and thats not even factoring the risk free rate.

Feasibly, the govt could increase the money supply by one thousand percent (10x) or any other outrageous % and stocks would most likely soar.

When money is printed, its going to go someplace. Oil, stocks, gold, other commodities, real estate, bonds, various consumer goods, etc.

Its happened in just about every country...Germany, France, Argentina, Russia, Zimbabwe, the list goes on and its currently happening in US.

In fact, it happened here during period late 60s until early 1980s. Stock market did absolutely nothing nominally, but inflation averaged approximately 8-10% per year and some years 20%.

What would happen if the government passed out ten billion dollar checks to each citizen? Would we all be "rich"? No, of course not. Suddenly a loaf of bread would cost 25k instead of 2 bucks.

However, psychologically we all would feel rich and thats what govt is most concerned about...perception. As long as the ship doesnt sink during their watch and confidence in the system avoids mass panic and fear, they dont give a damn about fundamental economic problems.

To end, bottom line is if your portfolio is up more than 20% the past 12 months, you havent made any real gains.

However, I know youve had some big winners, such as the surgical company, so keep up the good work.

Nothing says this money printing game has to end today, tomorrow, or 20 years from now, but what we do know is that it will end, and it wont end without before bankrupting many people holding the wrong assets.

All we know is that its one day closer to ending. People can make alot of money during bubbles. Its alot like musical chairs...dont get caught when the music finally stops.
 

Triple digit silver kook
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As I stated earlier, CPI only rises an average of 2% a year at the most.

If you have any record of your personal spending Id like to know how you are living the past 10 years with only a 2% per year increase in your living expenses.

Where do you shop, where do you live, what do you eat?

Start with house prices, healthcare, property taxes, utilities, car insurance, health insurance, satellite tv bill, cell phone, groceries, postage, gasoline, college tuition, the list is endless.

Computers and a few discretionary spending items have dropped, but the 2% cpi figure is among the largest lies told in America.

Whats more shocking is that a guy like yourself actually believes these cpi figures.
 

Rx .Junior
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Thanks for explaining the chart Data. I apologize for linking to a chart that is regularly updated as the point I was trying to make is no longer evident on it. I will see if I can find a static chart to link to in it's place for the latecomers.

And Dawoof nailed it. As a holder of an economics degree I am at a loss as how the fraud of CPI has been hoisted on the people. The textbooks still teach that inflation is an increase in money supply, why doesn't the government recognize that? Oh yeah we're the worlds largest borrower.


March 28, 2007

The Price of Almost Everything We Need to Survive Has Jumped by 100 Per Cent
How Runaway Inflation Has Slipped Under the Radar
By JANE STILLWATER

In 1975, there was this cute little two-bedroom house for sale on Grant Street in Berkeley. I loved that house! I wanted to buy that house! But I dithered around and missed my chance because I couldn't come up with a down payment for its outrageously expensive asking price -- $25,000.

I'd be extremely lucky today, even in the middle of the current housing slump, to be able to purchase that same house for less than $600,000.

I hate math but here goes. $25,000 goes into $600,000 how many times? 24 times? That's a hecka lot of inflation!

Remember back in the late 1970s when we had all those big long lines at the gas pumps? When gas went from 60 cents a gallon to $1.10 a gallon and we thought that was outrageous? "President Carter has caused runaway inflation," we were told. So we had an election and got stuck with Ronnie Reagan instead -- and suddenly "inflation" disappeared, never to return.

Remember back in 1968? By living at home and working during the summer, I was able to save up enough money in just three short months to put myself through U.C. Berkeley for the rest of the year. Tuition was $150, rent was $75, utilities cost $10 and peanut butter was cheap. I didn't live like a goddess but still -- I didn't have $150,000 in student loans to pay off upon graduation either.

Remember when peaches at the Berkeley Bowl Marketplace cost 69 cents a pound and strawberries were 89 cents a basket and hamburger was $1.75 a pound? Then suddenly about two years ago the price of peaches went up to $2.00 a pound, strawberries were suddenly $2.50 a basket and a pound of hamburger suddenly cost $3.25? And gas went from $1.80 a gallon to $3.30 a gallon?

In approximately the last two years, almost everything we need to survive has jumped up in price by at least 100%.

When this same incredible jump in prices occurred in 1979, everyone screamed bloody murder about "Runaway Inflation". Heads rolled. But when the exact same thing is happening now, NOBODY talks about inflation....

What's the difference between then and now?

Here's the difference.

In 1979, every media outlet in America was constantly letting us know that our country was suffering from inflation. Now we have to figure all that stuff out all by ourselves. According to a graph supplied by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the rate of inflation in 1980 was 14%. And today the rate of inflation is only between two and three per cent. So. Technically, we are NOT suffering from inflation right now. BUT. What does it feel like to you?

Here we are, scurrying around, tightening our belts, doing all of the desperate things we did in 1979 (and much more) -- only now we are doing it individually and gratefully, grateful as heck that our misery is of our own doing and NOT because America is suffering from inflation!

We need to stop being sidetracked by statistics and to start learning to trust our own experience at the grocery store and the gas pump instead. We need to start flying by the seat of our pants.

Remember that old adage, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?" Well, here's a new adage. "If a price raises at the supermarket and the media doesn't report it, does inflation still exist?" You bet!

If inflation cost Jimmy Carter the presidency after only one term, how come Bush wasn't thrown out of the White House in 2004? Two reasons. First, the rate of runaway inflation since GWB took over the White House wasn't hyped in the news constantly like it had been during the 1980 presidential election race. And, second, "If election fraud steals an election, does the winner still get to be President?"

PS: Instead of using the Consumer Price Index to measure inflation rates, we now rely on the Core CPI, which doesn't record dramatic changes in housing and energy costs. According to economist Ann Berg, the Core CPI only reflects that we are now buying more stuff at dollar stores. Dollar store purchases are now keeping inflation down? What? The once-mighty American economy is now being kept safe from inflation because low prices in DOLLAR STORES are forcing the CPI down? That's pathetic.

According to Berg, "Core CPI reveals no inflation because it tracks manufactured goods that have cheapened over time, the result of the entrance of a billion third world workers since 1990."

But still and all, the difference between the CPI and the Core CPI isn't all that great. If you really want to know what is going on in our economy, forget about the CPI and the Core CPI. The true measurement of current inflation rates can only be accurately determined by one thing -- what happens to you and me at the gas pump and the grocery store check-out line. And that news is NOT good.
 

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Data, I think the confusion may lie in the term "inflation". When most people see that they think of the current value of the US dollar compared to its historic levels. I believe the reference you are using is not compared to its historic level rather than the dollar's value against international currencies.

I we can replace "historic levels" with something like "domestic purchasing power" I agree with your assessment. Inflation is an increase in money supply and the increase of USD supply in recent years as well as in upcoming months is evident. Increased supply means loss of value and the value can be assessed by a reference to something of value. It cannot be assessed in "historic levels". The tighter the market for that reference, the better results you have by measuring in it. That is why it makes sense to measure the value in other currencies, actively trading commodities and stocks too. It does not make sense to measure value in grocery prices. When I was making my remarks I thought that most people in this forum think along these lines too. I apologize for any confusion this caused.
 

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Hitman26, it seems you are missing the subject of this thread that reads: "Stocks Soar After Half-Point Rate Cut". I am unable to see a relevance of your "since 1993" argument. Nonetheless, measuring inflation with CPI is extremely misleading. USD is an international commodity and USD inflation is not measured by grocery prices but much more by NYBOT's USD index which represents its value in terms of a basket of six major foreign currencies.

Yes, there are still sandwiches on a dollar menu but try thinking how much more expensive the trips to Europe became over the years.
Not to mention that prices are supposed to go DOWN. Innovation hides a large chunk of the "price inflation," but the real inflation is still there. Approximately 1/3 is hidden by innovation, 1/3 is hidden by foreigners holding our debt, and the last 1/3 is what we see. Those numbers are off a little, but it gives you a general idea.
 

Oh boy!
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I we can replace "historic levels" with something like "domestic purchasing power" I agree with your assessment. Inflation is an increase in money supply and the increase of USD supply in recent years as well as in upcoming months is evident. Increased supply means loss of value and the value can be assessed by a reference to something of value. It cannot be assessed in "historic levels". The tighter the market for that reference, the better results you have by measuring in it. That is why it makes sense to measure the value in other currencies, actively trading commodities and stocks too. It does not make sense to measure value in grocery prices. When I was making my remarks I thought that most people in this forum think along these lines too. I apologize for any confusion this caused.

Data, points well made. But at the risk of sounding argumentative isn't domestic purchasing power a more accurate indicator than foreign currency levels in terms of what people can afford? Certainly foreign currency levels lead to higher prices since we import so many goods. But I believe domestic purchasing power reflects those increases and is therefore more accurate in showing what people can afford.

So your statement regarding the increase of the stock market was no gain would be true regarding the foreign currencies represented in the NYBOT indes. However, the increase in prices of stock have not inflated when compared to the prices of domestic goods.
 

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Q:
isn't domestic purchasing power a more accurate indicator than foreign currency levels in terms of what people can afford?

A:
But I believe domestic purchasing power reflects those increases and is therefore more accurate in showing what people can afford.

I sure agree with you on that. However, "what people can afford" is not a measure of inflation due to the reasons I stated above.

So your statement regarding the increase of the stock market was no gain would be true regarding the foreign currencies represented in the NYBOT indes.

That and gold too, I know I keep an eye on it but I would guess that many other comodities went up too.

However, the increase in prices of stock have not inflated when compared to the prices of domestic goods.

Right, because domestic goods have no precise market value and will react slow as at first the retailers margins are going to absorb the price change. If the retailers buy something from a producer for, say, $0.70 and sell it to consumer for $1, they still want to get that dollar even though they are actually getting, say, $0.97. They can live with that. They do not want to scare of the customer with the price increase.
 

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